in afghanistan or what is occurring in yemen? >> pakistan is probably larger than any of them. afghanistan is a distraction. one thing about afghanistan, when you had the attacks on the hotel, it went back to vietnam. it's a reminder the people we are working with in afghanistan, given what they get out of pakistan, they will not be able to turn the corner. we continue to invest enormously there. >> howard dean? >> afghanistan, because of the leadership there, no matter what we do, it doesn't matter. karzai is hopeless. i'm more optimistic. if you look at it over many, many years, tunisia is a bright star. egypt is not going to be a democracy in the way we know it. yemen is a huge problem. libya, who knows. i think there's progress that's been made here. i agree there's a lot of countries not making progress. syria, who knows what's going to happen. there will be real gains. >> i kind of agree with governor dean. in yemen, if we have what you describe, the potential for ungovernable state, it will become a petri dish of groups. they may be highly dysfunctional, but not failed.
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